SEASON 1 EPISODES

QUOTES

“It says that being heard is so close to being loved, that most people can't tell the difference.”
-David Ausberger

BLESSING

May you listen to your life,
And may creativity be your muse,
And may you give the healing gift of listening to others.

LINKS

Living School - CAC

Benjamin Mathes

Urban Confessional

Crash Acting

@urbanconfessional

@crashacting

@bcmathes

Archive 81

Burn This

Catherine Fitzmaurice

New Seeds of Contemplation

Thomas Merton

The Pierces

Allison Pierce: Year of the Rabbit

Free Play: Improvisation in Life and Art by Stephen Nachmanovitch

00:02

Angie: Research shows that we spend about 80% of our waking hours communicating, through writing, reading, speaking, and mostly through listening - and yet studies also show that most of us are poor listeners. So how is it that we're bad at something we do so often?

We tend to think of listening as hearing someone when they speak, but words only convey 7% of communication. Which means that over 93% of our communication is thought to be non-verbal. Most of that is through body language (your facial expressions, gestures, and posture). And the rest is through vocal tone (pitch, tone, and expression). So you can see there’s so much more going on to this art of communicating and listening.

Which brings me to this conclusion:

That if only 7% of communication is verbal… then it makes me think that when others speak… we really ought to listen.

01:18

(music)

Angie: Welcome to Bones & Stardust, a podcast on what it means to be a human being, fully alive. I’m your host, Angie Von Slaughter.

(music)

01:34

Angie: Today's guest is Benjamin Mathes, an author of four books, an actor, coach, speaker, and... you guessed it... listener.

Benjamin has been an actor for over 20 years. On film, television, and stage, and has worked with artists such as Clint Eastwood, Bradley Cooper, Chris Rock, and more. And once upon a time, he was on the steamy soap opera As the World Turns. Most recently he was an acting coach for the hit Netflix series, Archive 81. He owns an acting studio in Los Angeles called Crash Acting, and there you can find him teaching with a guerrilla approach to acting driven by the idea that service is the context for artistic greatness.

But aside from acting, Benjamin is also the founder of Urban Confessional: A Free Listening Movement. Those a part of this movement stands on street corners all over the world with signs that simply say: "Free Listening" - an invitation to listen without any strings attached. Urban Confessional has been featured in publications such as The Huffington Post, Los Angeles Times, NPR, and more. Garnering attraction and curiosity about it what it looks like to just simply... listen. So, here's my conversation with Benjamin...

03:00

Angie: We met through the Living School and I remember we were paired up in kind of a group setting. And here I am meeting you and I was like 'This guy! There's something unique about him where he feels he feels like he's genuinely interested, and you can tell". And now knowing your story, I can tell that you're someone seasoned in listening because it showed. And so I instantly thought I want to know more about him. He's doing this listening thing and what is that?

Benjamin: Well, that's so kind of you to say, I do remember we were in one of those awful breakout rooms on Zoom.

Angie: Terrible!

Benjamin: There's nothing more anxiety-inducing than those breakout rooms!

Angie: The year of breakout rooms!

Benjamin: Oh my gosh!

Angie: We all need therapy!

Benjamin: Yeah, right right. We're always saying "Hi, good to meet you". But I absolutely remember meeting you and I'm so glad we've been able to stay in touch.

Angie: The first thing that I thought would be is probably the question you get asked often- but the first thing that I would like to talk about is if you can speak a bit about the Urban Confessional and how it got started and what it means to you. Because you just celebrated your 10 year anniversary with it, is that correct?

04:13

Benjamin: Mhm. Yeah, this is our 10th year. So, Urban Confessional started in 2012. It's a free listening movement and over the years I've had two stories that I say about how it began, one of them was the kind of protected version, you know, "Oh I thought people needed to listen because I wanted to blah blah blah" - It's all just crap.

The real one is that I was going through a really horrible divorce. Horrible not in the sense that some divorces can be horrible- where they're fighting over millions of dollars and children. We didn't have children and we didn't have millions of dollars. But I had really become somebody in this marriage I didn't recognize and then also was completely ill-equipped to deal with what was coming up for me and what's coming up for her. And you know, you look back and you just go "What was I even doing?!" But at the time I had no clue, I had no clue what I was doing. So, I was on my way to therapy and called somebody, another therapist friend of the family who is kind of a mentor. And he mentioned something about listening and that that it's important to do and if I would just listen to myself, I might find my way through this stuff and keep talking to other people and stuff.

05:38

Benjamin: So anyway, on a parallel path, I'm going through this really transformational moment in my life and digging up a bunch of stuff and flipping my world around. I'm also deeply re-examining my relationship to creativity and I'm yearning for creativity, become more of a service-oriented perspective. In Los Angeles, it can be a very, my first relationship to creativity, so I was thinking that service should be implemented into a creative process directly. And so I had been looking at ways to serve and for good reasons, you know, shelters and kitchens, etc. So I was going to a class, I was teaching and I was crossing the street and this is literally what happened. Some homeless guy asked me for some money and I didn't have any, but I said I would pray with him quite literally. It was really wonderful! We prayed or I guess I prayed with him or for him and then we kept crossing the street. It was just kind of a general ecumenical kind of, you know, prayer. We got across the street and it was the first time that I felt at ease or at peace and I had this thought "Wow! What would, what would it be like to do free prayer, to have a sign that said “free prayer”, Like who would come up to you and say “free prayer” and what would they need?" What a point of intimacy! And then I thought, "Well, free prayers gonna make me look like a street preacher. So if I do what's the closest thing to prayer I could think of at that moment? And then it was Free Listening." So I walked up to the class I was teaching on a Thursday night and I said, "Hey I'm gonna go do this thing and we're gonna make a sign that says 'Free Listening." I'm gonna go to the subway station in North Hollywood in Los Angeles and I'm gonna see what happens." And so then that was 10 years ago and now it's all over the world. And you know, it's just really been a wonderful thing. And there's no, it's not a nonprofit, there's no money- it's just really just a movement and raising awareness. But it shifted my life, it was the most transformational thing that I've experienced ever.

07:39

Angie: Well, absolutely! And I'm hearing your story and thinking what if he had said no?

Benjamin: The guy on the street?

Angie: Yes.

Benjamin: Well, I never thought about that. (laughs) I don't know.

Angie: You know, what if he had said no and then you go - this turning point in your life may have never happened. There were two key players. One clearly was you offering a service to this man and the other is the man receiving and he could have said no. You know, if someone came up to me and you know honestly if someone came up to me and was like: "Can I pray for you?" I have enough religious baggage that would probably be like: "Nope, see you later."

Angie: And I, so I think wow, what a beautiful thing that he opened up and I love that you, you said something really powerful, which was: "Instead of prayer, what's the closest thing to prayer?" And you said: "Listening." And just something in my heart was like, "Oh that's probably the deepest kind of prayer that you can offer someone", instead of just words like sitting with them hearing them what a gift.

Angie: What's, what's one of the weirdest things that you've heard from somebody?

Benjamin: On the first day that we did, this literally on the first day that we did this, a woman walked up and she said "Free Listening? Who would do that?!" And I said, "Free Listening". 'All you do is listen?!', she said. And I said "Yes, all we'll do is listen." She said, "Nobody's done that to me in 45 years, why would you do it now?" And she walked off! I was like, well. That's not weird, but it was like whoa!

And then somebody came up that same day, truly, and these two guys and they were walking and they made some comment to us and then they came back several hours later. They had just been to a clinic, he had just tested positive for AIDS. And the other guy, this is a smaller guy than the bigger guy took off his shirt and showed us his back where he had a giant beautiful tattoo of himself shooting a needle into his arm on a toilet, covered his whole back.

And the smaller man said I got AIDS from him because we share needles. And there he was with the tattoo of himself shooting up on a toilet and then they walked off.

Angie: Oh my God.

Benjamin: And it was like, we looked at, this is the first day we did this and I was like, "Oh Lord! I jumped into the deep end with this one."

Angie: Yeah, you did. Wow! So this is the Urban Confessional spawns from really a lot of your own life change. But then also I'm hearing has a tie to acting. And so I'm curious from - to switch and pivot real quick - what the connection is between acting and listening and being a good listener?

10:21

Benjamin: So if anyone were to go through formal actor training for example, in a conservatory or somewhere, a great deal of the focus is going to be on listening and responding. So I'm listening to my scene partner and then I'm going to respond to them. And that's been taught for 100 years through different techniques and from great teachers. And so in one way I had an understanding that actors specifically, should be the best listeners in the world because we've spent so much time, you know - it's been drilled into us from all our teachers, "You're not listening! You're not listening! You're not listening!" And yet I was experiencing just the opposite, that actors were the worst listeners in the world. And of course, that was just my circle. I'm around a bunch of actors, so that's where I was experiencing it. And I saw that the development of any creativity in any actor's process or any other process that is absent the true nature of giving and absent the true nature of others, don't develop in the ways that I know that it can and that I had hoped it would.

And so I thought, "Well if there's- if I have a desire to listen to strangers on the street, I also happen to be very close to people who have an understanding that listening is important. What if I begin there and what if I just take this group of people, I can literally touch and say, 'Would you like to come with me?' and see how it begins to shift all of our understanding? Of what listening is, of what art is, and take it out of the classroom and take these skills we've developed as actors- which at their best are empathetic and understanding and deeply present and deep listeners and deeply aware of the world around them. Let's take it out into the world and let's find out if we are present or if we're playing present in the scene."

And so what I found in myself and certainly in many, many others is that the actors who can who can go out on the street and stand and hold a Free Listening sign, have a radically different understanding of what it means to be present, what it means to be attentive, what it means to be aware than actors who have not done that. And then, of course, I will say people who are not actors, who go out on the streets, the lesson is the same. The actors were just the community I could start with because that was the group of people I was a part of. And so, I was filtering the lesson in part through that lens. But also watching in myself about the great transformation I'm going through personally and how the act of listening and the act of deepening my presence through listening and the act of being with instead of imposing myself on others, how that ushered me into what I believe was a very healthy transition.

13:13

Benjamin: In fact, sometimes don't even call it Free Listening, I call it "Free Withing"

Angie: That's powerful!

Benjamin: Just being with you, and oh man, trying to be with myself... wishing I had been able to be with my wife... you know. And, and just going, "Okay, I see what's happening here, I'm going to keep doing this!" I would do it for four hours a day, every day. Somedays you get sunburned it was awful. And I've decided there are times when I'm not doing this listening thing. If it's hotter than like 85° outside, you, you can fend for yourself I'm not going to stand out.

Angie: Well there is a certain element of, it's hard to offer yourself to someone and be genuine with them when, when you're also very distracted. You know, if you're, let's say not in a very healthy space or yeah, you're getting sunburned, you're sitting outside and it's too much, it becomes uncomfortable and it becomes harder to offer true presence. Which, you know, I'm sure some monk off somewhere can still do that. (laughs) I can't.

Benjamin: Yeah, right. But you're bringing up something so important because, there was, there was an evolution of my recognition in that. And at first and (maybe it was very important for me) at first, it didn't matter how hot it was, it didn't matter what it was, part of me was craving the connection to somebody. And then also part of me was reveling in the difficulty of the task. And then, and then eventually, you know, several years later it's like, "Okay, now, if it's raining, I'm not doing it. If it's hot, it's too hot, I don't want to do it." And I don't know if that's a regression or a progression, but I do remember feeling in the beginning that I needed to do this regardless of the struggle in doing it. Maybe that was a benefit to me.

15:08

Angie: Sure, I could absolutely see that. And it seems in many ways that there are so many overlaps because you're not only listening to other people, but in many ways, you're learning how to listen to yourself. Which, which is kind of like two sides of the same coin, right? That's kind of what I'm hearing. That in order to listen to people, we really need to be good listeners of our own hearts and life and vice versa. And so you touch on something that I think we're kind of scratching the surface of, is also this idea of getting back to creativity in a relationship with creativity, and listening to creativity. People might make fun of me, but there are many times if I'm going to create something, I often talk to the thing I'm creating, I might personify it,

Benjamin: It's amazing. I love that so much.

Angie: I might make it feel like it's a muse, I might say a prayer and ask, you know, for some greater higher power to use me or create this thing. And there is this element of like for, for my own self, and I'm curious to hear about you - there's a difference between creativity and creation that comes from a distracted hurried place, and creativity and creation that comes from stillness and listening and a sitting with space.

Benjamin: That's so beautiful to hear. 100%. 100%. And it's so funny you say this because I was just in an Instagram dialogue with someone, as we know the most important place for us all to be dialoguing. (laughs) But I'll speak exclusively from my world, which I think will make sense if I do that. So, in the world of acting teaching, the pedagogy for acting teachers has mostly in the United States, stems from a few Russian teachers in the 1920s and that has provided a very limited perspective genius as they were. They were all with the exception of maybe one Russian men who were delivering a really profound, you know, thesis on the work, but limited. And so I was taught through that lineage and then my teachers were taught through that lineage. Their teachers were taught through that lineage. And as is the case with acting training, it's really been copy-paste for about 120 years. So I've spent my whole life going, "Yeah, these things are important but there has to be more!" And it mirrors my spiritual journey, you know, I was raised Protestant but not really. My mom would take me to churches that had the best singing, you know, dancing and tongues. We'd say "Get there early to get the good snakes!" (laughs) "You know, you want to get the good snakes!" (They weren't snake handlers, but it was close, I felt.)

17:52

Benjamin: But it was, it was always the recognition, "There's more, here, there's something else going on." And that's how I feel about creativity as well. And so for with acting alright, we spend a lot of time in the approaches that I would use doing exactly what you've said, you're doing, and I would do this at all levels. There's a TV show now called Archive 81 on Netflix.

Angie: I just binged it.

Benjamin: Oh did you? Okay, well I was the coach for that show and for the actress on the show for Dina, the main character. And we would spend a lot of time she and I in a meditative state. Calling upon the character to come sit with her, calling upon the presence of the character just to come sit with her and to be with her. And to talk to her and to get to know the presence of this character in a meditative state. To call upon, dare I say, the "essence" or "energy" of this character, and then a few times I'll see acting as a very incarnational, to use some language and incarnational experience.

So, we would invite the presence of that character to inhabit her body and see what shows up. And so I'm not coaching and so much as I'm just helping her guide this meditation. And then the character would inhabit her body, offer her images and whatever it is. And we would go from there. And so I Ido feel that a deep listening - and by listening, I mean it kinesthetically, I mean it spiritually - a deep paying attention, a deep presence, is a prerequisite for creation in a way. And that deep listening sometimes is intentional. You might sit down to do something, or like you've said talk to the thing you're creating, which is so beautiful. Or maybe the deep listening feels spontaneous and as a collective or collection of micro-moments you've been doing that all of a sudden you've been ambushed by inspiration.

19:46

But I would say that though there are no rules if I could say that there is a rule, it's that listening precedes creation. And so for the actor to deconstruct and maybe for all artists to deconstruct some of the languages that has been handed down so that we might better see what's underneath it and see what other things we can come up with. And so the Instagram dialogue, you know, I gave the teaser at the beginning - the Instagram dialogue I got into, which was really wonderful, is that I had posted something about re-examining some of our language about "figuring out", "I'm going to figure out this project, I'm gonna figure out this character." And somebody very intelligent had said, "Well, figuring out, isn't it just semantics? By figure out, don't you mean empathize? Don't you mean to sit with?" And I said, "Well, I don't think most of us mean that when we say 'figure out,' I think we're engaging our rational minds."

I think when we "figure it out", it can also be past tense, "I figured it out." And so you've completed it. And any time an artist has figured it out, they've capped their ability to discover what's next. You know, they have the answers. And so I think the semantics are important because it's implying a different relationship to creativity. In other words, creativity doesn't work for you. It's not your assistant. You're going to sit with It. And, hopefully by deep listening and presence become incarnate. And so, many people will speak before they have listened for what needs to be said, that most of what they're saying is, nonsense and not advancing anything creatively because they're just talking before they've listened; talking metaphorically they're painting their writing or whatever before they've heard what needs to be said. And so a lot of artists who I would work with will feel stuck like their work is not being received.

And I've asked, "Did you listen before you spoke? Maybe you're saying something that doesn't need to be said right now and so it's not being received.

Angie: That is really good. There's something deeply meditative about it. It's like did we think before we spoke, did we..."

Benjamin: That's what your kindergarten teacher told you to do.

Angie: Very elementary and yet we're so hard-wired to DO. To act first. And what I'm hearing is it can be our greatest tool to listen first, sit with it, and then what we produce after that becomes more heartfelt becomes more honest, becomes more embodied and that is that is a gift. But most of us want to come out of the cannon blazing, "Let me just get to work! Let me do the thing!" And I'm hearing that really it's kind of that slowing down before you start that sitting with the process before you start. That really sets you up for success, which is a beautiful thing.

Benjamin: I want to say the actor, her name is Dina who is in Archive 81 and I do mean this, so, I would say part of her gift is the willingness to sit and let things arrive to her. And not have to figure it all out right away and that there's a real settled and very stable willingness to be informed by something greater than who she is and the willingness to do that is such a gift.

Angie: That is a gift, not everyone is willing to. So, in listening to people, whether it's an actor or a person on the street through Urban Confessional - what do you think people desire the most from the listener?

23:16

Benjamin: My favorite quote about listening is from David Augsburger. It says that being heard is so close to being loved, that most people can't tell the difference.

Angie (Narration): I want to state that many times. We feel that listening isn't enough we feel it's too passive. And yet, according to the quote by David Ausberger and Benjamin's experience listening can be a radical act of love, not passive. That being heard is so close to being loved, most people can't tell the difference.

Benjamin: And that is the whole thing for me. And so, if I'm to believe and I do, that suffering comes from the feeling or the belief that we are separate from, and that would be wisdom passed down through all traditions, that suffering comes from the feeling of being separate from and that we ease that suffering by remembering our belonging and listening is a pathway to that remembrance. And so whether the speaker in a Free Listening moment or whether the person who needs to talk is cognizant that they're searching for belonging or that they're searching to ease their suffering whatever it is. They may or may not be cognizant of it, but something is driving them to pursue that belonging. And so as as the person is standing with a Free Listening sign, they're making a passive offering, they're not we're not soliciting, it's there's no sales pitch here, standing quietly and if that passive offering tugs at the heart of the person who needs to to speak, then I think what's going on here is that the person who approaches the listener and says, "Hey, how you doing?" and for some reason initiates an interaction, then that person is being guided by a deeper, a deeper well inside of them that says, "I need to remember what this belonging thing feels like. I am thirsty to feel loved again and by listening deeply, I will receive that love because being heard is so close to being loved most people don't even know the difference."

Angie: That is such beautiful words because, in today's society, I can't help but often see the opposite. Where we live in a world that's constantly talking and we're clamoring probably more than ever for real authentic connection. And we're searching for it through social media and all these different ways that, and especially in a pandemic, that we're now even being forced to these platforms, leaving us longing for something deeper and more. So in many ways, I'm hearing you say it's like giving somebody the gift of love or the feeling of love. So, for you, what is it like to practice listening and the art of listening in a city that is so full of so much noise and distraction?

Benjamin: I love Los Angeles, I really do love Los Angeles. And I've said before, it's you know, it's to me it's one of the most creative places in the world and I forget that there are 10 million people here. Like it's a huge city, it's huge! And so it comes with all of the things that a big city comes with. It comes with all of the traffic and the smog and the dirt. And in a way, the city of Los Angeles is very much like a microcosm of a human being. It's got all sorts of real beauty. I mean, oh my gosh, there's just beautiful things here and there are real, real dark things here. And I find that the things I don't like about Los Angeles mirror very much the things I don't like about me. And in a city, this large, every piece of me is somewhere here. Somebody. somewhere, some neighborhoods, some shadow, something. I've got a sunset in me and the beach in me, and the mountains, and then I've also got the things I would prefer other people don't see. And so does this city and so I love that about the city.

27:16

But the listening, this is interesting, this is, here's a hot take everybody: listening has become a really wonderful way for me to avoid actual interaction with people. And this is something I've known and have seen. And I can see myself resorting to the stance and posture of listening so that I don't have to share anything about me. And so that you'll never know who I am, but I can just listen. I can make you feel good, you'll leave and you'll you'll think "What a great guy he was!" Being a good listener is a wonderful place to make sure, a wonderful way that you never get to know me.

The playwright Lanford Wilson, who is one of my favorite playwrights. He wrote a play called Burn This. And in Burn This, they talk about characters having mastered half the art of conversation. And they were talking about this character who has, who talks too much. He's mastered half the art of conversation. Well, I think I've mastered the other half of conversation. I'll listen to you all day long, but it's become, and can become a place where I hide.

Angie: Well, first of all, thank you for sharing that. That is a reveal of honesty and in many ways, I can relate. If we look at the world, not everybody is an extrovert. Not everybody is talkative. And some people do naturally, not only have the gift of listening, but I'll take it a step further, hide behind the gift of listening. And I love how you are talking about the gift of listening, but the shadow side of listening, which I think is involved in every single thing that exists. We have this polarity of shadow and light.

And in many ways, I love that you're tying in that beautiful analogy about Los Angeles being a microcosm of the macrocosm, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to start this podcast is, not only was I deeply fascinated by human beings and the many vast ways we manifest in this world, but I was also starting to see patterns of how everything is interconnected. And how can you not look at the world and see that plant life is much like human life or animal life, like human life. And now I'm hearing a city like the interior of the human soul. And it's true we have that hurriedness, that chaos. We have those moments that are more beautiful and joyous. It's like a balance. And so it's interesting to hear you weave all of this again, the - polarities are the word I keep thinking of. And so that's interesting to recognize as with anything, that listening in some ways is your superpower, but maybe also your Kryptonite. Because you can say, "Yes, I'm good at this, but this also might be the mask I wear to keep me distant. So I don't have to share about my own heart and soul."

Benjamin: Absolutely, yes! I don't do that until I get invited to a podcast! (laughs)

Angie: (laughs) And here you are!

Benjamin: And here I am! And I justify it. I speak a lot, I speak, you know, I'm speaking for 16 to 24 hours a week and I feel like I do say what's on my mind and "blah, blah blah". And while maybe there's an element of that's true, when it comes to the personal interactions, the intimacy I've had. People tell me, relatively recently, they say, "I've known you for years and I don't even know what you do."

Angie: Wow!

Benjamin: As long as I'm listening, you're probably going to really like me. But if I start sharing about myself, you may not anymore. And that isn't true but it is what I understand I can feel sometimes.

Angie: Which brings me back to that idea of the quote that you had, that "Being heard is so close to being loved." So in a way, you know, it's kind of like "Are we humans just that narcissistic that really we would almost rather just have someone sit quietly when we blab at them to make ourselves feel loved?"

31:22

Benjamin: I tell you there's a really wonderful teacher of mine, her name is Catherine Fitzmaurice and she teaches and has developed a certain type of voice work and breathwork and bodywork that I studied and became certified to teach and in the process of that certification.

I was 28 and we were in New York and had gone through all of this stuff and you know, it's a lot of breathing and body and just wacky stuff, and very important stuff. And she has an English accent, of course, so everything she says sounds very important! (laughs) But she's a sage, she is a sage and she's a wonderful teacher. And, we put a guy up on a table and we took his shirt off and we're watching him breathe. We're just watching him breathe. And you can imagine there's 25 people staring at you with your shirt off and watching you breathe. And so, you can imagine that he's self-conscious and he's squirming and he's laughing. And we're all kind of giggling and everything. And then she, she you know, she's looking at him also. And the attention moves towards her, the teacher. And there I was 28, she's probably in her sixties or seventies at the time, and I'm listening very closely for the next, you know, for her to impart her wisdom about the breath and about the ribs - and to really teach something. And in the quality of my attention, I'm being the best student I can possibly be, you know. And so I'm standing next to her because I want to be close to what it is that she's going to say. And she's looking at him squirm and she's looking at him, and she's looking at him be weird and she's looking at him be self-conscious and all she says is, "Aren't human beings so sweet." And, and it that changed everything for me, everything. We're watching him squirm and we're watching him be self-conscious and strange. And she didn't tell him not to be, she didn't fix it. She just said, "Aren't we so sweet." And I thought, "Oh my gosh, there it is. Yeah. That we want so desperately to be loved and to talk and to listen. And then we use listening to hide and then we use talking to hide and then we..." "Aren't we so sweet?"

Angie: Yes, it's true. Aren't we were so complex, right? We're, we're doing our best to live out our day-to-day and, and this one wild life that we have. And I think the older you get, if you're willing to slow down and listen, the more you can kind of tune in and reach into the deeper interior of your life and start to recognize some of these and almost humor at your own sweetness. Like, "Oh, there it is. I did that thing again. Gosh, isn't that funny?!"

33:56

Angie: So I can tell from the way that you engage, with the world around you that either you must love people or you're deeply curious, or maybe a little bit of both. What makes you so drawn to others?

Benjamin: I don't know what makes me so drawn to others, but I really do love people. That's a good question. I really do. But really honestly, is a genuine love and therefore then curiosity, maybe about people. Or maybe awe is a better word than curiosity for people. And I remember thinking I want to study acting because in the study of acting you study religion and anthropology and psychology and sociology. I loved all the "ologies." And it all shows up for acting.

Angie: Yeah, well, straight out the gate in talking about Urban Confessional, you mentioned you offered to pray with a man and you've mentioned a few words along the way. That then clues me in on you're a person of faith or spirituality in some form. How would you for lack of better words, because I don't think it gives it full weight, how would you define your spirituality?

Benjamin: I definitely, and have been my whole life a Christian. And now you say that, alright, I know that everybody's going, "What does that mean? Oh, God!" Like I said, "Get to get to church early, you get the good snakes!" (laugh) My dad is a Presbyterian minister, was forever. My brother also went to seminary and I probably was going to at one point in my life, but my mom was (my parents are divorced) my mom has always been very distrusting of the Church. By Church, I mean "institution" and so we were never members of a church or anything, but we always went to church.

And like I said, we would go to the church with the best music and that was the gig. And so, we would go where they sang for an hour and then some guy got up and yelled at you for another 30 minutes and then we go home. And as you can imagine it was difficult for us to pay attention. So, the church was 30 minutes away that we went to, it was an hour round trip. When you're a kid, it's like, "Kill me." So, we'd go to Dunkin' Donuts and you know, do the things, but we would squirm in church and wouldn't pay attention. And then one day...

Angie (Narration): Hold on for just a minute. Parents listen up! Benjamin is about to give you an excellent life hack to get your kid interested in something, but it might just cost you your beer money.

Benjamin: My mom says, "Listen, if you'll listen in church and you can talk about and ask me questions about the sermon on the way home, I'll give you $5 when we get home." So I was like, "Damn!" So, I would grab the brochure whatever they gave you, and a pen and I would take notes the whole time and then I'd get in the car and just berate her with questions. What are they talking about? What does this mean? Why are we doing this? What do you, what is that? Why are we saying this, what is this? And for probably a year or two. And I said, "Mom that is the best bribe you ever made." And so then I go buy comic books with my money, but it was, she trained me to, to question it all and to ask about it all, but also to listen to it all and to pay attention to it all. And to see that there might have been, and she didn't always have the answers, she rarely did. She since told me, she was like, "I didn't know what you were asking me." But and then I was introduced, I don't know-how on a street corner in New York, I think I bought "New Seeds of Contemplation" by Thomas Merton. And I was 18, and from then on the path for me became one of Christian Mysticism.

37:36

I worked with a rabbi for years in college. One of my degrees is in religion. I was always very interested in the mystical approaches and all of the things. And so I've never felt exclusive to any form of religion. I never was abused in the church, so I'm one of the lucky ones in ways, I was never spiritually abused. And so I don't come with baggage. And so I was able always to see the more mystical intentions behind this particular tradition. And so I never felt it as conflicting or counter to any other traditions that I may have studied and practiced as well. And so it deeply informs me another story.

I'll share the first date I went to with my now wife, we went to a bar in Los Angeles and we're having drinks at the bar and we're talking and it was a Saturday night and she says, what are you doing tomorrow? I said, "I'm going to church." She said, "What?!" It never dawned on me that that that would even be an issue, but I know that it is. And so, she has since told me which I love, she has since told me that as she got to know me, it restored her faith. Not in per se Christianity but it has restored, restored her faith in Christians. I like to hear that. So to me, it is a path towards that great Oneness that all paths are leading towards. And as a tradition, it has, of course, many beautiful things as you know, and has plenty of things that aren't so beautiful, just like Los Angeles, just like me.

Angie: Absolutely! Back again to the polarities! We have it all! So, in your journey, your journey of life in general who and I know this is a tough one to answer, but who do you think has influenced you the most?

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Benjamin: Well, yeah, that that is a that's a tough one to answer because there couldn't possibly be a single person. I would begin with my parents, both of whom are entrepreneurs, both of whom are deeply questioning, both of whom are also deeply faithful. My stepfather was one of the first people ever in the country to be diagnosed with AIDS in the late '70s. And so I lived with that through my whole life through the '90s. He died in 2000. He also in the mid-'90s came out as gay and he'd gotten it from a man, but he's already married to my mom. I mean it's a whole story! But in the midst of it all, in the midst of the AIDS crisis at that time and in the midst of, I would say, in the midst of a burgeoning acceptance of homosexuality in the 90s or at least a burgeoning recognition of it in the South where I was in Atlanta, I got to see, I got to see spirituality work. And I got to see spirituality and Christian concepts specifically work as it as it guided everyone towards greater forgiveness, greater acceptance, greater expressions of love. And here I am living with a gay man married to my father who's dying of AIDS and in the midst of a true expression of Christian love. And so it blew the roof off of anything else that could possibly be. I'd go to school and I'd have my friends who were raised in the conservative South and had a Bible Belt perspective, talking about these things and I would just be like, "I don't see any of it." But then again, I'm living in a totally different microcosm and so the Christian love I'm experiencing is transcending all of the judgments you have on a particular lifestyle and certainly a particular disease. So your God isn't fitting in my experience.

Angie: That's such an interesting phrase, your God isn't fitting into my experience because I do think there's a giant misstep in society has always been, but I see it often in modern society where we're trying to make our God the God for everyone, then there's the reality of my microcosm isn't at all like yours my reality isn't like yours. And so the way you're talking about God isn't the way I understand it. And there is beauty in inviting back to the beginning, the gift of listening into that conversation. "Okay maybe that's not how you understand God, maybe you don't even believe in a God." What is it like to sit and listen from this person and how their faith has shaped them and just come from a place of curiosity and not a place of they're going to change my mind.

Benjamin: Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful, that's a beautiful way to phrase that. It feels very much that to me, and in the, in that experience as a kid, I guess, or a high school kid, there was a recognition because I'm from reading Thomas, Merton and things, but no business doing that. I didn't understand half of it, I just thought it was cool. Some of the things he said and the recognition - and maybe the differentiation between oneness and sameness. And when I'm seeing my, you know Bible Belt friends, at the time and they're going to certain kinds of churches that are telling you certain kinds of things. And I'm going to the church where there's the best singing and I'm going there with a gay guy who has AIDS and the church didn't know he was gay and not sure if they knew he had AIDS. I'm not sure they would have accepted him, but we went anyway. We went because of the singing, you know, and then I got paid to ask questions about it afterward - it's really masterful raising. I have to tell you, it really is. It really is.

Angie: In many ways, it's like your mom was the original teacher for you of deep listening and it was all through... bribery. (laughs)

Benjamin: (laughs) Yes, exactly. "I'm gonna bribe you!" And my dad used to teach me, and he would say, "Jesus, loves me. All the rest is details." Which for a minister to say that some people would take issue. And I go, "That makes sense to me, that makes a lot of sense to me."

Angie: Absolutely. So, a lot of my listeners are really thoughtful. I think they're very curious and they're seekers. What are some books or podcasts or since you've mentioned singing often music that you'd recommend to our listeners?

Benjamin: I'll start with music. So, I'm a little biased here. My wife is a singer-songwriter, so I have to mention her. She and her sister have had a really great career than a band called The Pierces. And you may have heard their music before. But she did her own album in 2017, which was a very well-reviewed and very well-received album called "Year of the Rabbit". And when I think about, the pace of creation, when I think about listening prior to creating, I think about her in a lot of ways. She, the way that she writes is it can take years. But it is not because she's sitting around and then all of a sudden she writes its years of paying attention and then the song comes very quickly. And so the album was a Rolling Stone's Top 10 album of the year that year in 2017, and it is a beautiful album in the vein of Joni Mitchell or Patsy Cline. It's an album you can listen to and there's something being said. If someone is interested in sitting and listening to an album, I would say this would be a place to begin and you'll be taken on a journey, a really beautiful journey.

Angie (Narration): For those of you interested, his wife's name is Allison Pierce and you can find her album, Year of the Rabbit on Spotify

Benjamin: As far as books, what am I reading now? It is Thomas Merton now- "New Seeds of Contemplation" shifted me. Oh here's a better one! Not a better one, but a different one. It's called Free Play: Improvisation in Life and Art by Stephen Nachmanovitch. And that's a book I've been reading also since I was 18 or 19 and I've probably gone through it 20 times in a shape, just about everything I believe and do.

Angie: And the last question that I want to try to ask every guest that I have is what makes you feel fully alive?

Benjamin: As I was retelling the story a second ago about my teacher who looked at that guy and said, "Aren't human beings so sweet?" Every time I tell that story it feels like, but certainly this time, I almost get at the very edge of maybe I could cry in remembering it. Things so true, you know, you can't help but be overwhelmed by it. And so I would say that that type of sharing makes me feel fully alive.

Angie: Well, Benjamin thank you so much for our conversation and I look forward to having many more.

Benjamin: Oh Angie, thank you so much. It was the best breakout room I ever got put in. Thank you. (laughs)

Angie: Thanks for joining us for this conversation on listening.

If you're interested in following Benjamin's work please visit benjaminmathes.com

Or if you'd like, you can follow him on Instagram @UrbanConfessional or @crashacting.

You can get the show notes for all episode at BonesandStardust.com

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So, until next time my friends:

May you listen to your life,
And may creativity be your muse,
And may you give the healing gift of listening to others.

Stay safe and be well!